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Author Topic: LLD  (Read 4914 times)

Offline ÆR°

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LLD
« on: January 13, 2013, 07:32:24 AM »
Today, an admin and I were having a discussion about Last Lap Defense. Specifically, whether or not you may start doing LLD if the other team do not have enough laps that they will themselves win, should they all finish their lap.

So, as an example, 6 players on each team, your team has 14 laps, the enemy team has 8. Can you start LLD?

None of the rules about LLD on the website mention the enemy's lap score. Thus I am presuming it's an 'etiquette' issue, or even an 'it goes without saying' issue. It's called Last Lap Defense not attack for a start. Isn't initiating LLD so soon just kicking the enemy when they are down?

Also, I am aware that in scrims you can only turn once the enemy team themselves have enough to win. My question is regarding the public servers only.

Perhaps this issue (deliberately) left entirely up to the admin's discretion, whoever might be in the server at that time?

Clarification sought, many thanks,

~ÆR°

Offline BFM_Kiwi

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Re: LLD
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2013, 10:44:12 AM »
I don't think we have a rule covering that situation because it's just bad strategy.  You would never see it in a scrim, because it's the only reasonable way you could lose the map when ahead 14-8.  I don't think there is a rule, written or unwritten, about this situation in scrims, but you would never see it purely because you may well lose an un-losable map in this way.

In public servers I just don't think we can expect the average guest to know about the rule.  Even experienced guests often don't have a good understanding of LLD because it isn't used that much.  When it is used, it often causes arguments because the other team thinks you're cheating.  To the point that in a public server, I won't use LLD if I suspect the other team doesn't know about it.  I'd rather lose a map then get into all the arguments.

As far as I know, there is no rule that you can't do LLD at 14-8, or similar situations.  It might be a stretch, but if you stop getting navs to get kills you don't need, it is a bit like chasing kills.  But really the issue is more one of etiquette as you said.  Especially if the score is more like 14-6, or the team with 14 are all experienced racers and are winning map after map.  Then if they pulled this I would say something - hey guys, no need for that, you were cleaning us up, didn't need to do LLD.    I would understand that bullying wasn't their intention probably, they know about LLD and so they like to use it when they can.   I wouldn't say they broke a rule, but it is unnecessary, and depending on the situation, it could be unsporting - and we do have rules about sportsmanship.

So I would suggest you not do LLD in that situation because it's bad strategy and it can cause ill will.  I personally would not say you'd be breaking any rule. 

I would expect many admins might suggest you not do it, but we don't really cover this situation in our training.

Offline BFM_Slim

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Re: LLD
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 01:53:14 AM »
Kiwi is correct and if I may add you mentioned etiquette which touches on my thought. I was asked this question in a scrim season. My reply was simply what do we have to gain. We want to be good sports whenever possible. To turn at 14/8 would not be to secure the win so would only make the loosing team feel demoralized. No positive outcome to gain so no need. You would also find this is when the arguments would start. Without going into the scrim stuff or rules basically I think most long term racers are comfortable to see LLD if the scores are very close.

Cheers

Slimmy

Offline Wic

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Re: LLD
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 10:21:06 PM »
Just not to be left out  :LOL: lol...

Regarding your comment :

"Also, I am aware that in scrims you can only turn once the enemy team themselves have enough to win"

This is not a scrim rule at all... it would depend what order people were scoring in.  The other team might not yet have enough to win but may get into that position before your team can win, which may still make LLD a prudent strategy.

'Tis true, as has been stated,  there is no need to do it if there is no reason to, it is not the best of sportsmanship and unnecessary.  A win is a win, there is no need to rub it in or to turn just so a gunner(s) can get more kills.

Offline ÆR°

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Re: LLD
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2013, 01:43:51 PM »
Thank you for your responses.


In summary:

The admin I was racing with stated that we could do LLD even if the enemy's score was 8 or below (6 per team), and he was quite right as there is no specific rule against it.

However, it would most likely be seen as unsportsmanlike by many admins (but not all), and as such, though they won't warn against it, they might suggest or ask that you discontinue with that strategy.

It may not be the best stategy anyway, as you could, for example, ram into your own team, flip them, and they end up not scoring as a result. Though unlikely, the other team could in theory win under such circumstances.



My reason for thinking that it was a scrim rule was that captains past have said not to do it until the enemy had enough that their own rotation that could allow them to win, to which you may begin defense. I had inferred from that command that it was a scrim rule. It's a moot point, however, because if my captain says not to do it, it may as well be perceived as a rule! :toughguy:

Cheers,

~A
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 01:50:37 PM by ÆR° »

Offline BFM_Kiwi

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Re: LLD
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 04:37:02 PM »
On the subject of strategy, let's say you're on Death Island, your team has just scored to make it 14-8, and you have a convoy of 3 loaded hogs.

If you continue on:

Their team all score, making it 14-14.  One of their hogs continues on, and two hogs turn.  Those two hogs have to kill all 6 out of your teammates to win.  Not impossible, but very unlikely.

If you turn two hogs

You now have only one hog trying to score.

Best case: the turned hogs kill some of the enemy, and they respawn to the bases where they can now nade the one hog that is trying to score.  If they stick that hog and kill the occupants, your teammates may end up walking.  You're likely to still win, but you may make it much closer than it needed to be.

Worst case: the turned hogs get decimated.  The occupants respawn at bases, may or may not have hogs. Meanwhile the enemy all score, making it 14-14, and they turn two hogs at your single hog that is now coming around to score.  They have two hogs against one, just have to kill those two teammates and game on.

There are a lot of scenarios in-between, but in a scrim against a good team, it is in no way unlikely that you would lose if you turned at 14-8.

I remember in a fun scrim once, we were on Death Island, probably winning 14-8 or 14-9.  I know we couldn't really lose because they couldn't even turn yet. Went over the big jump, and I fired a single rocket back just for fun, and oops! killed a hog.  Bowser respawned at sandy beach and naded two of our hogs - killed 3 out of the 4 teammates in those hogs.  By then they also had turned a hog which finished off what was left of us, and we were scattered across the map, walking, off nav, and lost 14-15.

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