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Author Topic: Just a small question  (Read 3906 times)

Offline TR~$JACK$

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Just a small question
« on: November 26, 2013, 07:04:51 PM »
Ok just out of curiosity I have a question about a certain situation.

Say you have Player A and Player B.

Player A drops down from the bridge in Sidewinder after his gunner is killed. Player A then decides to stay underneath and wait for their gunner to go through tele. Player B comes along and fails the bridge jump and lands by Player A. Player B then goes and shoots Player A with a rocket launcher, thus killing them.

First of all, Player A was just sitting there not doing anything but waiting. Second the teammate had not yet even made it into the teles yet. Third Player B clearly has a hog they just fell out of but still decides to shoot. Not a huge situation but I would just like to know if there are any rules being broken in this situation.

If there's not I'll gladly move on. If there's is then hmmm..

Thanks,
   -Jack

Offline Wic

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Re: Just a small question
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2013, 03:47:09 AM »
Hi Jack!

No, there was no rule broken here.  Player B can't read Player A's mind and has no way of knowing if he will attack or not.  Once they fall off the bridge, technically there is a hog available for either one to use and B could well eliminate A to protect that hog.

If anything the questionable action here is Player A's.  Our rules state that everyone MUST keep moving to their next nav, regardless.  To be stopped and standing still under the bridge gives the impression of not racing and possible camping (even if thats not what Player A was doing, thats what it looks like).  An admin would warn A to please get racing and moving to their next nav and they would be right to do so.  Understood that Player A wants to team up but they can't wait for an extended time for their teammate to get there.  They could go up the bridge and take portals to second cliff, then to blue base and so on and meet up with their teammate elsewhere WHILE still following the rule of racing and moving to next nav.

Also, once the hog fell down off the bridge then theoretically there is a  hog for A to fight for and use as well as opposed to walking.

The whole scenario has some bits of grey area but Player B did nothing wrong at all.  Sure, he could have noticed that A wasn't fighting and he could have gotten in his hog and driven away.  But he isn't wrong to kill A either.  A needed to keep moving to nav while trying to hook up with his teammate, not wait under the bridge.  Its great to try and team up but if the wait time for the teammate is more than a few seconds then A needed to keep moving to nav.

Hope this helps :)

Offline TR~$JACK$

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Re: Just a small question
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2013, 10:52:22 AM »
Thanks for the reply. I see your point, but I think I left out a pretty important part.

Player A was in a hog.

Offline Wic

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Re: Just a small question
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2013, 12:01:01 PM »
Thanks for the reply. I see your point, but I think I left out a pretty important part.

Player A was in a hog.

You know, I thought of that after when I re-read it and meant to add to my reply.
In that case, all the more reason that Player A needed to keep moving.  He can't stay stopped for anything.  Perhaps if the gunner was coming through the portal on first cliff, and the 2 players were on a vent together and the driver knew that it might be acceptable for that second to wait but even then it is grey.  Player A is not progressing to navs and he is also now taking a hog out of action.

There are a lot of grey areas here :

How long was the wait by then?  Had the teammate got involved in a fight when he spawned at a base and been delayed?

If Player B fell down and out of his hog right in front of Player A's hog he might have thought he was potentially about to be run over and defended himself.  That could possibly be a valid argument.

If Player B fell down and Player A wasn't in the drivers seat, but was maybe in the passenger seat for whatever reason, or on the guns while waiting for his teammate then he is fair game, regardless of whether he fires or not.

If Player B fell down, wasn't in front of Player A's hog so no chance of feeling threatened that he should have not killed Player A. 

I do think if its as you say then it seems a bit of a gratuituous kill on Player B's part, but then again I have a strong issue with Player A just being parked there.

End of the day though?  Player A should never have been just sitting there.  With or without a hog. In Sidewinder especially it is easy to team up, given the portals from cliff to cliff, there's really no reason to sit still anywhere for any length of time.  The hog could have kept moving, get the first cliff (if he didn't get it before falling down) and head to second cliff.  If his teammate spawned at Blue and was taking portals he could grab First cliff and go back through to 2nd and team up there or at blue base because quite often you can make that trip faster on foot than the hog can.  If coming from Red he could take portals through First and on to 2nd and still team up there or at blue.  Can't just park and wait.  Or he could have stayed moving and at least have headed back up to wait for his teammate AT the tele's (for just a second), not down below.  In most cases by the time they drop back up the ramp and across the bridge the teammate should be just about coming through the tele regardless of which base they spawned at.  What if he spawned and got into a firefight at the base?  How long is ok for Player A to stay parked and wait? 

Tough call depending on the details but I would lean towards Player A shouldn't be parked there and none of it happens.  If I were admining the server my first inclination would be to say that Player A should have kept moving somehow while attempting to get a teammate.  If I had noticed someone parked there I would most likely have asked them what they were doing and said they needed to get moving and pick up their teammate on the go.  Our rules state that you must keep moving to nav at all times, though we allow the exception to briefly hide if you are alone and avoiding a loaded enemy hog.

Take it a step further.  Player A is hiding under the bridge, where he is mostly out of the line of fire.  His gunner comes through tele, jumps down, hops in and the hog pulls out from its spot under the bridge and the gunner immediately has a shot at a lone enemy hog that came along to go up the ramp.  Is it fair for him to kill that hog? popping out of nowhere like he did?  Not really.  Especially if the hog is a lone hog.  Maybe if its a loaded hog.  The whole situation just become muddied. 

Hope that helps :)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 12:59:43 PM by BFM_Wic »

Offline TR~$JACK$

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Re: Just a small question
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2013, 04:58:49 PM »
Wow did I have something to drink that night when I started this thread? The map that I was talking about was not Sidewinder like I stated above, but in fact Ice Fields. Sorry for that, it might clear up some confusion...

Regardless, I still assume that your reply above would be extremely similar to what you would have put if you knew it was Ice Fields.

I really do appreciate your detailed reply though Wic. Haven't had the pleasure of ever racing with you I don't believe.

I have been racing for a long time and have always paused under the bridge in Ice Fields if a teammate was about to come through. I am sure all of us do it, it's second nature. Why leave your teammate stranded in the middle on foot (thus causing other havoc) when you could just wait the 5-10 seconds that it takes for them to go through the teleporters? Don't we all promote picking up teammates? Or can we not pick up teammates at all, since that would stop us from progressing to our next nav...

Now before i reply to your comments I'm just going to throw out there that I was Player A and a BFM was Player B...if y'all still haven't figured that one out. It'll make things so much easier.

To your first comment. You're right, I really had no idea that my teammate was gonna come through the teleporters since I wasn't on vent with them. But I decided to wait since I knew they would probably come through since they still needed that second nav. So I was stopped and was not moving to my next nav I get that. But once the bfm failed the bridge and fell "behind" me...he decides to shoot? I was alone so wouldn't that be camping since he had a hog? Or would it be camping since he is also 'not' moving towards his next nav?

I don't really have a response to your "end of the day thoughts" since it is mostly based on a situation in Sidewinder. Thus I apologize again for giving you false information. But the main theme from that paragraph is that I shouldn't have been sitting there. Well that just brings me back to what I, and mostly every other racer would do. I was simply waiting for my teammate to come through and get his nav so we could move on. I have never seen anyone ever get called out for doing this. Not even in your servers.

The last point that you made really doesn't have anything to do with the situation I think. That situation can happen anywhere. If two teammates happens to team up and a lone enemy hog comes along and just happens to get killed then tough luck. The hog is moving and also moving towards the next nav...anyways...

I'm not new to grey areas. I have dealt with many of them in my own servers. But I really don't see this situation of mine being a grey area at all. I simply see it as a player out of the way getting camped by another player. There's small things here and there that we can go back and forth on all day but I prefer the bigger picture.

The only reason I even inquired about this wasn't really the situation that happened but really what the reply was when I asked why the bfm had done it. All I got was a simple "payback" as a response. Now I really don't see that as a legit excuse ..do you? I almost guarantee that the bfm that was involved in this didn't have a clue about any of these rules or grey areas when they killed me. So really this is for them.

Thanks again for the reply.

Offline Wic

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Re: Just a small question
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2013, 09:25:36 AM »
Well.

That was a lot of wasted time on my part wasn't it, since a great deal of it was predicated on first cliff bridge on Sidewinder and the teles available there.  Thanks.

So I'm not going to take so much time with this one.  It is a bit of a different ball game with Ice Fields, but you are right, I'm not going to change my mind about the waiting.  I DID say it being ok to wait a couple of 'seconds' - you mention 5-10.  Ok.

A lot of us would wait for the teammate.  A lot wouldn't.  Players on foot drop down from the bridge with the RL and need a hog, they take you out.  A loaded rocket comes along, same thing.  Public server, no telling really what a lot of players will do of if they'll think of you waiting for them.

Unless on vent though, and have solid knowledge they are coming through, you should have kept moving.  Especially in public servers  you never know what another player will do or their understanding of the strategy, and you can have no idea of what that player was doing at the base.  Grabbing a hog that was available?  In a firefight?  Getting run over? You should keep moving. 


I don't appreciate your comment "or should we not pick up teammates at all, since that would stop us from progressing to our next nav...".  Given the time I took with your question and the fact you didn't even provide accurate information, it smacks of sarcasm as you well know we promote this as a team game and ALWAYS encourage picking up teammates and I never once inferred otherwise.


BUT Player B - and I don't care if they were BFM or not - based on what you have said THIS time (and I don't know their side of it or how they saw it) IF they fell behind you and had no reason to feel in danger they should not have killed you.  They had a hog.  They might have asked what you were doing sitting there, for all they know you were afk or whatever.  But they didn't need your hog and if you're in the drivers seat and not on guns then they shouldn't have killed you.  Feel free to PM me the BFM's name and I'll see if I can get their side.

This finishes this discussion.  And please don't refer to "drinking" on our forums, at least in a context where it possibly infers alcohol.

We are done with this thread and its being locked.  You can pm me any further questions.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 09:31:05 AM by BFM_Wic »

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