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Author Topic: settle a bet xD  (Read 5866 times)

Offline Bulk

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settle a bet xD
« on: May 23, 2009, 08:39:50 AM »
i did my maths gcse non calculator paper last monday, to be honest i felt it went really well but i had argument with a friend about one question in particular that had mot people talking about lol

the question was:
make "u" the subject of the formula
1/u + 1/v = 1/f

i then did the reciprical making it a very easy equation getting the answer of   u=f-v
whereas my friend mutiplied out the fractions and got something completely different, both ways seem sensible but i dont know which works, personally i think doing the reciprical will get the same answer as multiplying out the fracions if it was done properly

am i right? i tried the multiplying out fractions and it got diferent answer, but i stand by my reciprical method


this could be worth 5pounds to me if i am right lol :P
cheers bfm
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Bit harsh tbh, thought i was at least nice sometimes :P

Offline jim360

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2009, 09:26:24 AM »
One good way for you to settle the bet by yourself it to plug in a few numbers. Let's choose u=v=1. THen clearly the left-hand side is 2 and the right-hand side must also be two. hence f=0.5. Now by your reciprocal method 1=0.5-1=-0.5, or 1= -0.5. This is evidently wrong, yet since the numbers are possible values for u, v and f we must conclude that the equation u=f-v is wrong.

So what's gone wrong? The simple answer is that only in very special circumstances does your method work (in particular see the last paragraph). Funnily enough there was a question on a Cambridge Maths exam where it was asked to carry out this analysis, so I can tell you that the equation u=f-v is valid only if f= (-v+1.73vi)/2 or f= (-v-1.73vi)/2, or put another way there are no real solutions for u, v and f that satisfy u=f-v and 1/u + 1/v =1/f. The proof of this comes from applying the correct method for rearranging the equation that I'll describe below.

Firstly when you take the reciprocal of the left-hand side you cannot do it term by term. Instead you have to say that f= 1/(1/u + 1/v). Now we apply the basic rule for adding fractions, which means that the term on the bottom must be the same for both fractions, to show that 1/u + 1/v = (u+v)/uv, so that 1/(1/u + 1/v) = uv/(u+v) = f. then uv = uf+ vf and so u(v-f)=vf or u = vf/(v-f). If we check using the values u=v=1 and f=0.5, we see that the right-hand side is now 0.5/0.5=1 as expected.

The reason that we can show that there are no real values that work with your method is by combining the two answers, u=f-v and u=vf/(v-f) and equating them. Then rearranging gives f2 +vf+v2=0, and considering this as a quadratic in f gives that the determinant is -3v2 which is always negative.

So, in conclusion, you've lost £5. Sorry.

As an exercise, you may wish to show that it is possible to have real numbers a,b,c and d such that a+b+c=d and 1/a + 1/b + 1/c =1/d, but if and only if two of a, b and c sum to zero.

*by the way, i is the square root of -1.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 09:53:40 AM by BFM_three60 »
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Offline BFM_Noddu

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2009, 10:02:47 AM »
 Nevermind the bet... I'll pay you 5 pounds if you understood that  ^^!

Noddu xxx

So I'm guessing  1xfxv = u is wrong??

Oh munchkins :(
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Offline jim360

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2009, 02:43:12 PM »
Exactly. What I said.
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Offline BFM_Edison

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 01:24:25 AM »
One good way for you to settle the bet by yourself it to plug in a few numbers. Let's choose u=v=1. THen clearly the left-hand side is 2 and the right-hand side must also be two. hence f=0.5. Now by your reciprocal method 1=0.5-1=-0.5, or 1= -0.5. This is evidently wrong, yet since the numbers are possible values for u, v and f we must conclude that the equation u=f-v is wrong.

So what's gone wrong? The simple answer is that only in very special circumstances does your method work (in particular see the last paragraph). Funnily enough there was a question on a Cambridge Maths exam where it was asked to carry out this analysis, so I can tell you that the equation u=f-v is valid only if f= (-v+1.73vi)/2 or f= (-v-1.73vi)/2, or put another way there are no real solutions for u, v and f that satisfy u=f-v and 1/u + 1/v =1/f. The proof of this comes from applying the correct method for rearranging the equation that I'll describe below.

Firstly when you take the reciprocal of the left-hand side you cannot do it term by term. Instead you have to say that f= 1/(1/u + 1/v). Now we apply the basic rule for adding fractions, which means that the term on the bottom must be the same for both fractions, to show that 1/u + 1/v = (u+v)/uv, so that 1/(1/u + 1/v) = uv/(u+v) = f. then uv = uf+ vf and so u(v-f)=vf or u = vf/(v-f). If we check using the values u=v=1 and f=0.5, we see that the right-hand side is now 0.5/0.5=1 as expected.

The reason that we can show that there are no real values that work with your method is by combining the two answers, u=f-v and u=vf/(v-f) and equating them. Then rearranging gives f2 +vf+v2=0, and considering this as a quadratic in f gives that the determinant is -3v2 which is always negative.

So, in conclusion, you've lost £5. Sorry.

As an exercise, you may wish to show that it is possible to have real numbers a,b,c and d such that a+b+c=d and 1/a + 1/b + 1/c =1/d, but if and only if two of a, b and c sum to zero.

*by the way, i is the square root of -1.

I concur.
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Offline BFM_JANE

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2009, 08:21:42 PM »
I concur.


And I always agree with Edison. Noddu owes me five pounds, whatever a pound is. :P



Offline BFM_Edison

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 12:31:22 AM »
About .45 kilograms.
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Offline jim360

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 04:03:39 AM »
To be more precise, one pound sterling is presumed to be the value of 240 old Saxon stirling silver pennies. So there. The correct symbol for one pound is £1, which indicates that we are referring to modern decimalised pound sterling. Before February 1974, the correct symbol was in fact ₤1 from the Roman symbol for Librae. This also explain why pennies were referred to in shorthand as d., as in ₤1 10s 5d for "1 pound ten and fi'p'ny". This also explains the etymology of the Spanish currency the Lira, also from the Latin Librae.

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Offline Ben-BSH

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2009, 04:13:00 AM »


So if Kitty = f, then v must be lesser than Kitty x Triangle  :haw:

Offline BFM_LËÕ

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 04:25:42 AM »


So if Kitty = f, then v must be lesser than Kitty x Triangle  :haw:


  :interesting: what he said
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Offline BFM_Hydra

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2009, 05:25:46 AM »
ROFL that's the best lolcat I think I've ever seen.

+10 Ben


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Offline Haunted

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2009, 11:26:23 AM »
i wrote:

f x 1/v = u

;D by me ;D


;D Thanks Hlao! ;D


;D Thanks Spood! ;D

Offline ¥Mderms¥

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2009, 11:53:43 AM »
Nevermind the bet... I'll pay you 5 pounds if you understood that  ^^!


Yea.... no not so much.

Offline Haunted

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2009, 10:14:59 AM »
One good way for you to settle the bet by yourself it to plug in a few numbers. Let's choose u=v=1. THen clearly the left-hand side is 2 and the right-hand side must also be two. hence f=0.5. Now by your reciprocal method 1=0.5-1=-0.5, or 1= -0.5. This is evidently wrong, yet since the numbers are possible values for u, v and f we must conclude that the equation u=f-v is wrong.

So what's gone wrong? The simple answer is that only in very special circumstances does your method work (in particular see the last paragraph). Funnily enough there was a question on a Cambridge Maths exam where it was asked to carry out this analysis, so I can tell you that the equation u=f-v is valid only if f= (-v+1.73vi)/2 or f= (-v-1.73vi)/2, or put another way there are no real solutions for u, v and f that satisfy u=f-v and 1/u + 1/v =1/f. The proof of this comes from applying the correct method for rearranging the equation that I'll describe below.

Firstly when you take the reciprocal of the left-hand side you cannot do it term by term. Instead you have to say that f= 1/(1/u + 1/v). Now we apply the basic rule for adding fractions, which means that the term on the bottom must be the same for both fractions, to show that 1/u + 1/v = (u+v)/uv, so that 1/(1/u + 1/v) = uv/(u+v) = f. then uv = uf+ vf and so u(v-f)=vf or u = vf/(v-f). If we check using the values u=v=1 and f=0.5, we see that the right-hand side is now 0.5/0.5=1 as expected.

The reason that we can show that there are no real values that work with your method is by combining the two answers, u=f-v and u=vf/(v-f) and equating them. Then rearranging gives f2 +vf+v2=0, and considering this as a quadratic in f gives that the determinant is -3v2 which is always negative.

So, in conclusion, you've lost £5. Sorry.

As an exercise, you may wish to show that it is possible to have real numbers a,b,c and d such that a+b+c=d and 1/a + 1/b + 1/c =1/d, but if and only if two of a, b and c sum to zero.

*by the way, i is the square root of -1.

jim.... you needed to make u the subject

;D by me ;D


;D Thanks Hlao! ;D


;D Thanks Spood! ;D

Offline Kane

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Re: settle a bet xD
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2009, 10:50:12 PM »
letters...
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