Are Turntables instruments?

[Marty]

is a collage not art? just because you are not making the brush strokes dose that make it a picture and NOT art ?
its the same with beatjugling you are taking snippets from other songs putting them together and making a new one

I'm not asking whether it's music - I'm not disputing that, even though I hate it. I'm asking whether it's an instrument.

And a melody is defined as 'a series of pitches and durations that make up a musical phrase'. Certainly if you want a theoretical thing then they have to be recognisable notes - whether on- or off-key. Otherwise, a person chopping wood could be described a s melody, or the crackling of a fire or the bubbling of water. They may make sounds, but it's not a melody.

[BFM_SüprM@ñ]

IMO a turntable is not an instrument, but something a bit above it in a way. The DJ would definitely be a musician IMO. Those items that we deem as instruments don't simply create sounds from nothing, hence the quotes around the word "nothing" in many previous posts. These items contain the potential to create the sounds that we deem music. In a way a turntable works the same way, simply containing sounds that we combine in order to create what IMO is music. The difference for me is that the turntable contains much more complex "sounds" that would be equal to a note on a guitar or similar instrument. And despite the fact that turntables use music that was created electronically, the keyboard does as well (as previously mentioned). If viewed in an organization point of view, guitar= notes and combinations of the contained notes whereas turntable = music and combinations of the contained music.

[Marty]

FINAL RESULT - TURNTABLES ARE NOT INSTRUMENTS
 by one vote.
I win the argument, LEO.

[Goalie]

Hold on, I don't think you counted the absentee ballots.  They'll be arriving within the next year or so.

[BFM_Edison]

As much as I hate to use Statistics, the difference in votes is not wide enough for you to claim that one wins over the other. You'd have a horrible level if significance if you tried, so it wouldn't be very useful at all. Now, on the other hand, you can indeed say that they are 50-50 with a good degree of confidence.

[BFM_SüprM@ñ]

Hold on, I don't think you counted the absentee ballots.  They'll be arriving within the next year or so.

I move for a recount! Those Florida votes were rigged!

[Ledgo]

I would classify a turntable in the P.A/Mixer category. (Spelling?)

My reasoning is your average turn table is a sampling device that alters a sample and such. You can't alter a sample through an instrument. A Turn Table is used to take samples and do other things with it. It doesn't MAKE the music/sound, it alters it. And in fact, technically a turn table is a type of phonograph What modern turn tables are actually just a phonograph built to scratch and such. You can make that scratch noise with an old phonograph that you can on a turn table.

In short, it's technically a phonograph heavily altered into a mixer. Not to say a turntablist isn't skilled, but I wouldn't consider it an instrument.

[HOBOLAGGIN]

i think i may be a little late, but i think they are instruments

[Marty]

Looking at Wikipedia's list of musical instruments, TurnTables are instruments. Equally, so is a sampler. However, how do you define a musical instrument? By the way Wiki is defining it, when you pick up a rock and start striking it on the ground, it's a musical instrument. Drumming your fingers on the table is a musical instrument. A CD player, or iTunes, is a musical instrument. All these seem to be stretching it a bit too far - there must be SOME qualitative way of saying when something's an instrument and when it isn't? Any ideas, guys?

[BFM_LËÕ]

Looking at Wikipedia's list of musical instruments, TurnTables are instruments. Equally, so is a sampler. However, how do you define a musical instrument? By the way Wiki is defining it, when you pick up a rock and start striking it on the ground, it's a musical instrument. Drumming your fingers on the table is a musical instrument. A CD player, or iTunes, is a musical instrument. All these seem to be stretching it a bit too far

yes banging your head on a wall dose make your head a musical instrument & the wall  one to .

How do u define music ??? you can make music from any sound so that means the item making the "SOUND" is a musical instrument. weather it be a guitar string being plucked or a zipper of a jacket going up and down

because "MUSIC" is almost impossible to define any thing that makes a sound is a instrument of music

  there must be SOME qualitative way of saying when something's an instrument and when it isn't? Any ideas, guys?

IMO no any thing can be a instrument of music. because the most horrible sound to you can be music to some one else hence the saying "it is music to my ears"

~LÊÔ

[Marty]

banging your head on a wall does make your head a musical instrument & the wall one, too.

How do you define music??? you can make music from any sound so that means the item making the "SOUND" is a musical instrument. weather it be a guitar string being plucked or a zipper of a jacket going up and down

because "MUSIC" is almost impossible to define - any thing that makes a sound is an instrument of music

IMO anything can be an instrument of music, because the most horrible sound to you can be music to some one else hence the saying "it is music to my ears"

~LÊÔ

By that argument, LEO, a nuclear bomb could be deemed a musical instrument. However loose your definition of music is, there is no way a nuclear bomb could be a musical instrument - yes, it produces sound and yes, some (IMO) twisted people might like the sound of a WMD exploding, but it is not music.

There has to be a distinction between sound and music - just as there needs to be between pictures and art, words and literature, otherwise the more 'refined' forms become meaningless. A tissue box is an image, but the moment somebody shoves a plaque underneath, it doesn't become art - it's still just a box of tissues. You can't take something everyday, put a label on it and call it art / music / literature. A scribbled note passed around the classroom isn't literature.

IMO there MUST be a distinction - and this leads me to state that things musical instruments have to be made a) solely for the purpose of being a musical instrument (this includes music-writing software), and b) capable of making original melodies and/or rhythms. By this you can include drums and synthesisers, but NOT turntables, which rely on pre-recorded music to create 'new' music. Whilst a midi keyboard contains recorded notes, it is still capable of making a 100% original melody - a turntable isn't.

[BFM_LËÕ]

By that argument, LEO, a nuclear bomb could be deemed a musical instrument.
There has to be a distinction between sound and music - just as there needs to be between pictures and art, words and literature, otherwise the more 'refined' forms become meaningless. A tissue box is an image, but the moment somebody shoves a plaque underneath, it doesn't become art - it's still just a box of tissues. You can't take something everyday, put a label on it and call it art / music / literature. A scribbled note passed around the classroom isn't literature.

but that just it there isint there is no definition that makes a sound music so if i want to say a
nuclear bomb going off over and over again is music then it becomes music you might not like the stile of music but it is music!!  a photo in its self might not be art but a Collage is a gutar string being plucked isnt music its just a sound no matter what 1 sound isnt music but if i have a loop of 1 sound it is.

a)  A instrument dose not have to be Made just for the use of music a wash board is a instrument and the is no way it was made for the purpose of being a musical instrument.


b) so a nuclear bomb going off repeated over and over is a rhythm i cant see how that is any different from a drum???

 

NOT turntables, which rely on pre-recorded music to create 'new' music. Whilst a midi keyboard contains recorded notes, it is still capable of making a 100% original melody - a turntable isn't.[/b][/color]

midi keyboard acts the same way you can use a turn table the interface is different but thay still do basically the same thing. turntable use samples of sounds  and you build on them  there is no difference but the interface  
YES with a turntable i can put a song on and walk away!! but you can do the same with a midi keyboard


~LÊÔ

[Marty]

but that just it there isint there is no definition that makes a sound music so if i want to say a nuclear bomb going off over and over again is music then it becomes music you might not like the stile of music but it is music!!

...

so a nuclear bomb going off repeated over and over is a rhythm i cant see how that is any different from a drum???

Difference between drum and bomb: one is made solely for music, the other is a WMD that makes a noise. A collage, equally, serves no purpose other than to be art. But anyway - saying 'a collage is art' isn't an argument for turntables being instruments - the paper / pictures making the collage aren't 'artistic instruments' eg Paint Brushes / Pencils. Equally, a car isn't an 'artistic instrument' even if some painter is using to make a painting. Whether the result is art or not, the car is still ... a car - a vehicle designed for transport.

My point is that, even if a turntable makes 'music'  - so does a CD player. So do headphones, iPods and Speakers. That doesn't make them musical instruments - they produce music, but they don't make original music ... they take existing music and either, as in CD players, exactly repeat the music or, as in turntables, mix it about.

Once more, I repeat - a MIDI keyboard can create a 100% original melody / song - something that has NEVER been done before, that NOTHING is a part of in any way and that contains NO elements of any existing song. Admittedly, it is now very hard to create a melody that contains no other existing melodies - but it's still possible for MIDI keyboards, your voice, a computer or a piano - but NOT for turntables.

[BFM_LËÕ]

so your saying a washboard isnt a musical instrument.
if i take a guitar and use it as a hammer it isnt a musical instrument if i take a brick and make a beat it is a musical instrument there in nothing that says that i cant use a wmd to make music making that wmd a musical instrument

i can buy a guitar and never play it it is not a musical instrument it is furniture it might have been intended to be a musical instrument but its not it is doing NOTHING musical it is there as a ornament

Once more, I repeat - a MIDI keyboard can create a 100% original melody / song - something that has NEVER been done before, that NOTHING is a part of in any way and that contains NO elements of any existing song. Admittedly, it is now very hard to create a melody that contains no other existing melodies - but it's still possible for MIDI keyboards, your voice, a computer or a piano - but NOT for turntables.[/b][/color]

im going to repeat this A midi keyboard is the same as a turn table the only difference is the interface  it is just a pre recorded sound played with another and another there is no difference. and saying that it CAN'T produce a "100% original melody" is just Absurd 

NOTHING is a part of in any way and that contains NO elements of any existing song

all a midi keyboard is is prerecorded sounds from other songs every sound it makes is part of a existing song.

marty i honestly can't comprehend how you can say this here is a musical instrument and this here isnt just because it wasn't intended for use as a musical instrument. when you can use anything you want that makes a sound and produce a song. if it is making a sound that is being turned in to music it is a musical instrument

~LÊÔ

[Marty]

The reason I can say that x is an instrument and y isn't is because if everything that makes a sound is an instrument, then EVERYTHING is an an instrument - that's nonsensical. If everything is an instrument, then 'musical instrument' might as well be a synonym for 'object' or 'thing'. While you can use a rock to create a beat, even if you're using it as a musical instrument, that doesn't necessarily MAKE it a musical instrument. I can use a stick as a sword, but that doesn't make it a sword. I can us a toilet roll as a telescope; it's still a toilet roll, not a telescope. I can use a log as a pillow; it's still not a pillow. Using something as something that it isn't doesn't make it that thing.

By similar argument, even if you don't use a guitar as an instrument, it still is an instrument even if you're using it as furniture/an ornament.

Therefore, I put it to you that there is a specific divide between a 'musical instrument', an 'object which makes noise' and a 'machine that makes music'.

And a MIDI keyboard contains samples of NOTES from different instruments/sounds, not samples of songs, which is what a turntable uses, and therein lies the difference - one uses notes, one uses songs. It's the difference between a painting and a collage - one has nothing to begin with, the other has something that it changes.