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Author Topic: Are Turntables instruments?  (Read 10153 times)

Offline Marty

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Are Turntables instruments?
« on: June 12, 2009, 07:52:35 AM »
Briefly, for me an instrument needs to make its own music. A guitar has no music in and of itself, it has to be used to make music, whether that music is original or not. It still makes its own music. For a guitar, it cannot make any music that doesn't consist of one note without multiple placings of fingers, etc.

A turntable uses music that already exists to create new songs. No other instruments do this - just turntables. All other instruments have to make their own music. Whilst what is being done on turntables can be very skilled, a turntable is more like a complex CD player than an instrument for me - you muck about with music that already exists and barf it up as something new - but still something that existed in the first place. Again, no other instrument does this.

Furthermore, IMO a person on a turntable is not a musician. A musician is more than someone who plays an instrument - a musician understands music. They understand Cadences, Rhythm, Chord Sequences, Key Signatures, Dissonance, Resolution, Syncopation, and a huge variety of musical knowledge in their head, even if they wouldn't know what to call it (e.g. Hendrix, who had a huge amount of music theory in his head even though if you asked him what he was doing he couldn't explain it). A person on a turntable need not understand any music theory whatsoever - they just need to know how a turntable works, and have a good sense of rhythm.

Finally, LEO talks about turntables using existing music to create new music, making them musicians. Well, then, is a person who takes the start of one novel and sticks on the end of another novel an author?

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« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 12:29:01 PM by BFM_Marty »


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Offline zagwa

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2009, 07:54:21 AM »
Go Muffin man!!!!!!!!!!!!! W00T Muffin man ftw (My idea) Go muffin man!

Offline Haunted

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2009, 07:54:55 AM »
turntable = not instrument

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Offline BFM_LËÕ

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2009, 08:08:03 AM »
me and Marty have been arguing on vent for over 2 hrs...
A turntable is a  instrument if your using  a guitar your are manipulating the sound the strings make on turn tables  you don't have strings you have vinyl so to make a new song u manipulate the vinyl to make another sound or take 2 sounds and put them together  the same as u do with a guitar you are not just playing some one Else's song you are building on it and adding parts from others to make a different sound   click me!
Just because your not plucking the strings docent meen that  you aren't changing the song and making it yourown
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 08:16:58 AM by BFM_LËÕ »
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Offline MrMxyzptlk

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2009, 11:05:11 AM »
Briefly, for me an instrument needs to make its own music. A guitar has no music in and of itself, it has to be used to make music, whether that music is original or not. It still makes its own music.

A turntable uses music that already exists to create new songs. No other instruments do this - just turntables. All other instruments have to make their own music.

Well then, using that definition the Moog synthesizer - and every "synthetic" keyboard device since - is NOT an instrument, which I'm sure would be met with strong argument for the majority of the music world post 1969....

Also, I read an article a while back wherein this guy really DID make what would pass for "a musical instrument" - albeit an electronic one - even by your standard. [Mxy scans periodicals/Internet... >GAH!< 'Can't find it right now, sry....  :embarrassing:]

Anyway, whether I care for the "music" it makes or not is another story, but once synthesizers "made music" by recreating the sounds electronically and modifying them, I think that openned the door for MIDI-based stuff and hence anything else that was audio-recordable.

I think the main resistance with turntables is the gross analog aspect of how the sound gets "sampled" versus the more-accepted "it was electronic from the start" feel of other audio synthesizing sources....

So I say "Yes, it is a musical instrument," but I'll also add "...But do you really call that sound MUSIC?!?"  :LOL:

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Offline Marty

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2009, 12:31:22 PM »
Quote
Well then, using that definition the Moog synthesizer - and every "synthetic" keyboard device since - is NOT an instrument, which I'm sure would be met with strong argument for the majority of the music world post 1969....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the synthesiser make music that doesn't already exist IE it doesn't take a CD and muck about with the sound?


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Offline BFM_Kiwi

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2009, 01:22:35 PM »

I so want to say not an instrument, but I reluctantly have to agree with LEO on this one. 

Offline BFM_Hydra

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2009, 02:14:46 PM »
I'm saying no. I honestly can't fathom how it could be called in instrument.

I mean, it doesn't make music anyway. Just noise :winkgrin:


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Offline Goalie

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2009, 02:19:44 PM »
turntabling is an art.  Just like any other musician tells you, art takes time to learn and perfect.  Whether its voice, guitar, clarinet, or percussion, they'll all say the same thing.

So now let's look at some arguments:

To quote from Wikipedia:

Quote
To people in many cultures, music is inextricably intertwined into their way of life. Greek philosophers and ancient Indian philosophers defined music as tones ordered horizontally as melodies and vertically as harmonies. Common sayings such as "the harmony of the spheres" and "it is music to my ears" point to the notion that music is often ordered and pleasant to listen to. However, 20th-century composer John Cage thought that any sound can be music, saying, for example, "There is no noise, only sound." According to musicologist Jean-Jacques Nattiez, "the border between music and noise is always culturally defined—which implies that, even within a single society, this border does not always pass through the same place; in short, there is rarely a consensus.... By all accounts there is no single and intercultural universal concept defining what music might be, except that it is 'sound through time'."

"There is no noise, only sound."  "Sound through time."  I think these two quotes sum up a lot.  There is no set definition to what music is, hence the discussion we are having right now.  But if you follow what the wikipedia quote states, then yes, disk jockeying is music, because it follows a "time" and creates sound.

However, let's go to Marty's argument:

Furthermore, IMO a person on a turntable is not a musician. A musician is more than someone who plays an instrument - a musician understands music. They understand Cadences, Rhythm, Chord Sequences, Key Signatures, Dissonance, Resolution, Syncopation, and a huge variety of musical knowledge in their head, even if they wouldn't know what to call it (e.g. Hendrix, who had a huge amount of music theory in his head even though if you asked him what he was doing he couldn't explain it). A person on a turntable need not understand any music theory whatsoever - they just need to know how a turntable works, and have a good sense of rhythm.

So according to what you say, a drummer is not a musician.  Drumming does not require knowledge of chords or keys.  But when you put a drummer with someone else that does, then you have music.  According to your argument, a drummer would need more than a good sense of rhythm and the ability to hit things with sticks to become a musician.  What if he does?  Does that make him a good musician?  Not necessarily.  With practice, even a disk jockey would find what rhythms go best with certain music.

One last argument:
Quote
Well then, using that definition the Moog synthesizer - and every "synthetic" keyboard device since - is NOT an instrument, which I'm sure would be met with strong argument for the majority of the music world post 1969....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the synthesiser make music that doesn't already exist IE it doesn't take a CD and muck about with the sound?

There are many types of synthesizers.  My definition of a synthesizer is just a keyboard with a lot of add-ons.  It can give preset beats, add in some drums, add some instruments, and you don't even need a full band!  You could take music from a CD or disk and modify or add on to it.  Does that make that person a musician?  Depends.  Since it takes its music from other mediums, you could say that technically it isn't an instrument, only a device that plays music.

I am a well versed musician.  I have played music for almost 17 years now.  I can play piano, french horn, trumpet, a little clarinet, and countless other instruments that I have a little bit of experience with, including voice (used to sing alto, but once puberty hit, became a bass).  I have to say, becoming a disc jockey does take some creativity, while playing a instrument just requires you to read music that someone else created.  Playing music does require some creativity, such as how to express it, but creating music takes a lot more.

Does that mean they're musicians?  Perhaps.  Scratching records provides a beat or rhythm that is added onto other music.  But that's what drummers and guitarists do everyday; add on to what is already there.  So going on that notion, I'd have to say that a turntable is not an instrument, instead its just a device.  However, the disc jockey that uses the turntable can be considered a musician.
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Offline Pynk Dude

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2009, 08:20:12 PM »
I say no

IMO, it's like calling a Computar an instrument because you're able to make and alter music on that.


Offline MrMxyzptlk

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2009, 08:44:20 PM »
Quote
Well then, using that definition the Moog synthesizer - and every "synthetic" keyboard device since - is NOT an instrument, which I'm sure would be met with strong argument for the majority of the music world post 1969....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the synthesiser make music that doesn't already exist IE it doesn't take a CD and muck about with the sound?

No.  In fact, most modern keyboards (formerly distinctly "synthesizers" because they did only that, synthesized sounds) allow the manipulation of pre-recorded sounds (usually MIDI samples.) Nowadays these are called "MIDI keyboards."

The market (the sale of MIDI and audio samples) to musicians that manipulate them via their keyboards is a HUGE market, too. (Hint: "keyboard MIDI samples price" )

I'll bet that a sizable portion of music sold that was recorded after 1980 makes use of a MIDI keyboard and it's union musician (credited) player....

I don't see how a turntable is any different, except for the user interface....

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Offline Marty

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2009, 05:00:56 AM »
So according to what you say, a drummer is not a musician.  Drumming does not require knowledge of chords or keys.  But when you put a drummer with someone else that does, then you have music.  According to your argument, a drummer would need more than a good sense of rhythm and the ability to hit things with sticks to become a musician.  What if he does?  Does that make him a good musician?  Not necessarily.  With practice, even a disk jockey would find what rhythms go best with certain music.

Hmm...good point. However, a drummer still needs knowledge of rhythms, syncopation, and other rhythmic musical theory, which you don't need for turntables. Ask a drummer what the difference is between 6/8 and 3/4 is and they'll be able to tell you - a disc jockey probably couldn't. [Incidentally, the difference is that 6/8 is counted ONE two three ONE two three, whereas 3/4 is counted ONE & TWO & THREE]


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Offline jim360

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2009, 05:28:21 AM »
However tempted I may be to say no, we have to recognise that music is ever-evolving, with new styles being developed all the time. Also taste shouldn't be a factor in making this decision.

Is rap music, for example? You get some drum beat that takes about 5 minutes to "write", then talk really quickly over it in a not particularly rhythmical way with nothing that would pass for "traditional" music that I can identify. At least that's what I think. But most people regard it as music, and I must agree with them.

So, as to a turntable. In the end no, I don't think it's a musical instrument, but it is a very sophisticated unique tool. It's not an instrument because it seems to require more of a "feel" for how to work it best than any theoretical understanding.

And anyway, John Cage is rubbish so anything he said is just completely not true. :P
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Offline BFM_Edison

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2009, 05:40:12 AM »
It's not an instrument because it seems to require more of a "feel" for how to work it best than any theoretical understanding.

I'm sure you can find many very good musicians who learned how to play an instrument without taking classes to have a theoretical understanding and feeling their way through the music instead. You can't necessarily go about saying that they don't have a theoretical understanding like those who never took classes either without either first-hand knowledge.

Either way, I don't really think you can make a strong, definitive argument for either side anyways :P
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Offline jim360

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Re: Are Turntables instruments?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2009, 05:51:00 AM »
Surely the skill of the person using a tool should be independent of the nature of the tool itself? After all, the fastest supercomputer is still less intelligent than a worm, but the right programmer can make it perform miraculous feats. Further, there are limits to how far self-taught musicians can progress - when their technical flaws make it impossible to play a piece to as high a standard as a more proficient virtuoso.
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