The Rule On Snipers

[R0CK]

I must, once and for all, ask the question that begs and begs for an answer.  I'm sure that someone else has already made a topic on this, but I wanted to be up front and ask for myself.  Here goes...

Why is the sniper rifle completely forbidden from being carried, aimed, or fired in the BFM servers?

I know what you're thinking.  "Because that's how we've always done things"  or maybe "That weapon is for noobs and campers - no respectable person would ever use that gun!"

The sniper rifle appears in many of the BFM server maps within the rotation.  BFM has willingly placed this weapon inside of its servers, but has not disabled them from being picked up (as clans like -AD- have done).

I suppose this may be a tactic that BFM has - if a player uses the sniper, that person is labeled "a rule breaker" by default.  This is a great way to identify people who are not serious about racing, if BFM takes the time to point out specifically that this is against the will of the BFM administrators.  Still, this is often very confusing.

Maybe the sniper is forbidden because it's the most powerful weapon in the game.  Maybe BFM hates it because it's the best camping weapon in the game.

It's an understood fact that the sniper is the most powerful weapon in Halo PC (in hands that have had lots of practice), but it is NOT the best camping weapon.  The rocket launcher is the best camping weapon, since it involves staying at one nav to disrupt hogs which come across that location and killing any other players that come across that specific location.  BFM allows this weapon, but not the sniper.  Again, I am very confused.

sniper bullet:  nearly instant delivery
rocket launcher:  about 40m per second (possibly 50m with a severe case of lag) The effective range of this weapon greatly diminishes after a measly 100m.

The pistol is my favorite weapon; naturally the sniper is my 2nd favorite.  
The sniper is a 3x condensed version of the pistol.  Let me explain.  The sniper fires 4 times in a clip whereas the pistol fires 12.  The sniper has 8x magnification, whereas the pistol has 1/3 of that (rounded), which comes out to 2x magnification.  The sniper delivers INSTANT death with a headshot on the default settings;  the pistol requires 3 headshot rounds to kill a target.

The sniper can be properly used in the BFM servers.  I see no reason why it can't be fired from the passenger position while the hog is being driven.  I also see no reason why I can't whip out a sniper rifle during a contested hog situation, whereas my foe may whip out a rocket launcher and blow everything to pieces without even having to aim.  I guess I need all of the readers of this post to ask themselves to place a sniper rifle in the hands of a rule-abiding player who actually has a pistol in his/her hands.  Imagine any situation.  Now imagine yourself!  Is the sniper an unfair weapon?  Is its use really cheating as BFM points out and bans for?

As I've proved here, the sniper rifle has been mistreated by BFM.  I suppose now the next logical step would be to defend BFM keeping things just as they are now.  After all, there is no point in changing something if it is already the best it can possibly be.

BFM admin quotes:

Those that run BFM have a different opinion of how things should be run...

We don't expect everyone to understand why we do things the way we do...

We just expect that if you choose to come to our community you do so while abiding by our rules.

Other possible explanations that I have come up with:
-The sniper rifle is very difficult weapon to keep track of, making administration take a slight bit of effort to maintain.
-The sniper rifle is the only weapon that can be fired across the map effectively.  Other weapons must be used at much shorter distances, which is no problem for even unskilled people who want to camp with heavy weapon.
-The sniper rifle carries potential for misuse, along with every other weapon I can think of.  This includes fists, as I've previously been warned for the use of only my melee attack to attack and kill an enemy.
-Previously stated by BFM and simply put:  the weapon has, for whatever reason, always been considered a form of cheating.

Now for the confusing part:  the sniper rifle has been voted the favorited weapon of choice by the BFM community.  You guys have good taste, but it's distasteful to see this fabulous weapon go to waste and to see skilled players get banned for using their favorite weapon in a proper racing manner.  I anticipate some support on that statement.
BFM link:  http://www.bfmracing.net/forums/index.php?topic=15868.0

I do not mean this post in disrespect.  I am actually PR for BFM and would like to thank BFM for the great racing environment it provides (most of the time).  No game server I've visited has been perfect, and they've all been willing to adapt to changing environments.  This is necessary for the life of any organism, even a robotic one.  Sometimes someone must have the courage to make an attempt at the tough questions, or else nobody will.

[R0CK]

I received an intriguing PM that deserves to be heard.  It offers to expand the discussion a bit.  Besides, non-BFMs cannot comment here without the permission of those who are already in the discussion.



PM conversation:

In my opinion, the sniper rifle is not allowed because in order to effectively use it, you need to be at a good vantage point (example: a cliff/ledge) and your opponent lower than you, which would be breaking another rule, firing/nading down from an elevated area.

That is my opinion anyways. And many times, in order to get the rifle, you have to be way off course from your navs in the first place, thus not racing.

At least, that is my opinion. I want to see what the admins say, though.
~Devin (ЬÇhåÑ )

That's a very clever answer, and the best one I've had yet.  *props*

One thing though.... does the sniper really need a cliff to be effective?  Yes this would be breaking a rule, but I could (for example) do the same thing on the 2nd cliff (final racing nav point) of BloodGulch with a rocket launcher, which is a legal weapon.

This is going to be a very interesting discussion!

[BFM_Booyah]

I don't mean to rain on your parade but very few of the assumptions you made have anything to do with our reasoning.  Our reasoning is very simple.  It is a camping weapon.  You say the sniper CAN be used properly in race servers.  That is technically true but you are missing the point that it WILL only be use properly by a very small percentage of the population...something approaching 1%.  With that fact in mind the one thing that you said that is on target is that such a situation would make admining in those server a nightmare.  Admins would never get a chance to play because they would spend all of their time looking to see if the sniper was being used "properly".  Doing things half way is just not a good idea in our experience.  Either let them use it or don't.  We have decided to not allow it.

We will not use a mod to remove or otherwise disable the sniper rifle because we decided a long time ago that we would run mod free servers.  We have no reason to change that policy and following rules (like no snipers) is a very simple thing and is not too much to ask.  There are no other reasons for other than that.  

One thing I would point out is that all the other race servers that have different sniper rules than us (or have mods)...how popular are those servers compared to ours?  BFM has had the same sniper rules ever since we had only one server.  We came to be as popular as we are by virtue of the rules and policies that we have and that includes the sniper rules.  You can't ignore the track record.

P.S.  I hope you asked for permission to share that PM.  A PM (private message) is just that and it is not appropriate to share them without knowing whether or not the other party is Ok with it.

[R0CK]

Boo you've made a good point about maintaining the same old rules, but have ignored most of my post.  Please re-read it more carefully.  Among other things, I have also asked why the rocket launcher is still available, unlike the sniper.  I would agree that the sniper is a great weapon to camp with, simply because it's so powerful.  Still, I find people actually tend to camp with the rocket launcher much more than the sniper rifle, especially people who haven't the slightest idea how to aim a weapon.  It's more frustrating and much closer to cheating when you're killed by an inferior player by a powerful, cumbersome weapon than to be taken out with a very well-placed sniper round.  I really appreciate it when someone kills me without being cheap.  I'll often type a message of admiration toward players who kill me in impressive ways.  I hope I expanded on this enough.

PM issue:  not part of my question and I don't want it answered here.  PM's haven't tended to be very private in the past, so I made the above decision.  If ЬÇhåÑ complains, I would be more than happy to change it.  In retrospect, I actually think he would have posted here if he had admin capability.  Again, this is not part of my discussion or question and I don't want to expand in this area.


edit: ЬÇhåÑ has ok'd the use of the above PM

[BFM_Booyah]

It's not that I didn't read your post but, like I said, those arguments are, in our experience, irrelevant.  The theoretical arguments and reasons for changing rules hold very little weight next to the very real track record and experience of which servers prove to be most popular.  Whatever it is we have been doing obviously works...why change it when the servers that do things the way you suggest obviously don't work as well as ours?

[R0CK]

It seems you haven't quite claimed that the sniper is unfair or cheating.  You're not answering very many of my questions, nor have you taken a side on the rocket launcher point.  At first glance, it seemed like you just wanted to avoid the question completely, but you didn't quite do that.

If your answer to my question is simply put that BFM pays for 14+ servers and people race in them every week, then, as you pointed out, logic (along with the sniper rifle) really has been scattered into the wind. 

[BFM_Booyah]

You are right, I never claimed that the sniper was unfair.  It's not.  In fact anyone who wants to use the sniper in a race is just plain silly.  I don't care how good you think you are with a sniper, BFM has had some of the best slayers ever to play the game come through here and, in four years of racing, I have not seen a single player ever be effective with a sniper rifle in race.  What I did claim is that allowing it's use is more trouble than it's worth...especially when the person using it will not be able to make effective use of it anyways.

I did not address the rocket launcher issue because, since you named the thread "The Rule On Snipers" that the question you were looking for an answer to was the sniper issue.  Like I said most of your assumptions, including your comparison of the sniper with the rocket launcher, are irrelevant because they have nothing to do with why we decided to outlaw the sniper in the first place.  The rocket launcher is a totally different ball of wax and plays no part in my answer to your original question which was about the sniper.

You have made theoretical arguments as to why the rules should be different...I had offered you 4 years worth of experience and real world results to show that our rules are exactly what they should be.  But if you want to take cheap shots and say we are the ones throwing logic out the window then be my guest.  Feel free to try out your ideas in your own server yourself and let us know how it goes.  Don't take that the wrong way either...that is exactly how BFM got it's start.  We had different ideas than the existing racing clans about what we thought would be better so instead of arguing with them about it we tried out our ideas in our own servers and, in the end,  proved our points to be correct.  I totally respect the fact that you may have a different opinions than us about what works but I don't appreciate the attitude you came across with at the end of your post.  If I honestly thought that a clan was making illogical decisions, as you obviously think we are, then I would not be looking to join that clan.

[R0CK]

We had different ideas than the existing racing clans about what we thought would be better so instead of arguing with them about it we tried out our ideas in our own servers and, in the end,  proved our points to be correct.

So you basically just tried things out until most of the racers were happy with the server settings and the server rules.  Simply saying that your servers have players in them didn't exactly answer my question.  This next answer is more specific and does answer my question.  Ok, this is a good enough reason to shut me up.  xD  Anyway, the whole point of me asking this question was to figure out why BFM would make this rule in the first place.  An answer to the sniper query was found with experience, not exactly by predicting what would happen.  This probably took a lot of time to perfect, and I can respect that BFM must have reasons for doing things that I will not understand until I actually talk to BFMs about it.

I've ran into a handful of players that have been very good with the sniper rifle, even in a race game.  The guys over at CC aren't very active anymore, but boy did some players over there put on a spectacular show with a sniper rifle.  Still, I understand the point of view that BFM holds: 

...it WILL only be use properly by a very small percentage of the population...something approaching 1%.

This is obviously a bit of an exaggeration, but I do agree with this point.

I've always been VERY frustrated when I couldn't use a sniper in a BFM server - even in self defense or from the passenger seat of a hog.  It's a great weapon that other players have voted as a favorite as well.  I do now understand why it is preferred by most players to not be used in a hog-race setting, although it HAS proven to be popular in a foot-race setting.  I now realize that my CC point is a bit different in nature as well, answering my own question within the same post. 

Anyway, I really appreciate you granting me peace of mind about this rule.  I won't be frustrated by this rule any more.  I have no further questions about this rule for BFM officers.

I really hope everyone who had a question about snipers reads this topic in its entirety.

[BFM_Booyah]

...Simply saying that your servers have players in them didn't exactly answer my question...

Again I suggest you re-read my first reply to you because I did in fact answer your question as to why we came up with the rule in the first place.  If you are going to ask a question you should to be focused on listening to the answer instead of focusing on arguing your own opinions to the point of missing the answer that was given.

[R0CK]

The question has been answered (by two BFM admins), and I don't have any further questions!

I might as well post this in here too, considering I want this post to help other players also:

Hey Rock,

I read ur post on the sniper and would like to put in my 2 cents

I've asked the same question as you and this is the way I saw it.

The only fighting that should occur in the race servers should be ether from a hog or a split second battle on foot. The only time the sniper could be used for the first example would be from the passenger seat, and lets face it, except for the very skilled the sniper would be useless in that situation. For example two , split second fights, again other than in the hands of skilled slayers, the sniper is not usually more effective at CQ combat than the pistol or assault rifle. For the most part, effective sniper usage has to be planned out and is often used to kill ppl far away that are not a threat to you, and if you want their hog it will disappear by the time you get over to it. This defeats the purpose of racing.

So to sum it up, the sniper isn't allowed b/c it cannot (for the most part) be used effectively in the appropriate combat situations that are allowed in race. And while I believe that U would use the sniper appropriately Rock, i think that 99% of people would abuse the power that is the sniper rifle.
Also the fav weapon thread poll u provided a link for was more intended for ROCKS or KOS not for the weapons in race. Because honestly the weapons you have in race REALLY don't matter ALL that much, other ppl might say other wise, but like i said this is my two cents 

You have my permission to quote this in the question thread

Thanks for listening,
Liam

Alrighty...These are my reasons why sniper rifles are banned...

1) Snipers give WAY too much advantage to a person that knows how to use it. We want to encourage strong, competitive, fair racing and if someone is headshotting everyone with a sniper rifle as soon as they spawn, this takes away the competition. In scrims, we don't even have pistols for this reason!
2) The sniper rifle is abused, allowing it's use would encourage it's abuse.
3) If you're scoping someone with a sniper there is no way that you are racing.
4) If you're running around with a snipre no scoping than your range on the enemy is way too unfair.
5) On most maps sniper rifles are out of the way of the race path. (Exceptions: Gephy, Timberland)
6) Firing from ledges is against the rules because it gives advantage, and this is mainly where snipers are used from.
7) To seek out and catch snipers who are breaking the rules is seriously time consuming. If we ban rifles we can just throw out warnings to discourage a sniper, rather than attempting to find out if they would be using them legitimately.
 A sniper rifle can be generally associated with slayer and capture the flag. There is no need to headshot people constantly as you should be racing at all times, and there is no need to stop people from capturing a flag from half way across the map, in race. Why have a weapon that is capable of these things?

Now, here is my rebuttal to your arguments.

1) A passenger using a sniper rifle causes panic in the servers, and the admins would investigate to see where the shot came from. If it was from a passenger seat all the "OMGZ DONT SNIPE" messages from the other guests and also the investigation by the admin would b unnecessary and waste racing time as well as admin availability elsewhere on the map.
2) Sure, a Rocket Launcher is more powerful than a sniper. We'd rather people use rockets for the purpose of jacking hogs and killing enemies though than people using snipers. Once again, RARELY have we ever seen a person using the sniper rifle in a situation that you would say should be legal (ie. gaining a hog). If you are in the position to get trying to get in a hog in a close situation, chances are you are at a spawn point also, and there are no sniper rifles in the vicinity. Once again also, a sniper rifle causes unneeded confusion and panic in the servers.
3) Rocket launchers are allowed because the majority of time they are used legitimately. I'd say 90% of every time a rocket is shot in a BFM server not from the back of a hog, it is legal. The sniper rifle though? I'd say 98% of the time it falls under someone camping on a ledge or just plain not racing. To compensate for the 2% of times that it may well be legal is, in all honesty, quite ridiculous.
4) The sniper rifle is not willingly placed in our servers by any means. We place it in the servers simply because we'd rather the sniper and ban it than people complaining there were no pistols, or people launching fuel rods from the other side of the map at an enemy hog they can barely see. If we take out snipers, we take out pistols.
5) We don't hate the sniper. No. Think about it from OUR perspective. Not a guests perspective. The sniper causes trouble. People up on the Gephy ledges, shooting down from the mini ice fields tunnels or from the bridges on Danger Canyon. The sniper rifle rule is not because we hate it or because we don't know how to use it. It's because it makes adminning SO MUCH EASIER.
6) At the end of your post you state that you thank BFM for the great racing environment we provide, but then you say "most of the time". Well, if we allow sniping for just one day, you'll see what we mean in terms of making adminning easier .

BFMs rules are for a few reasons...To make the game fun, to make the game fair and to make administration as easy as possible. (I am excluding our family friendly rules). I think that the sniper rifle rule clearly achieves these three objectives.

Feel free to post this response in the thread .

Kind regards,
BFM_Hydra (Forum Moderator)
 

[Joxer]

Isn't that what Booyah said?

[BFM_Elvis]

This is just a little game Rock is trying to play. Booyah explained why they are in the servers. There are other reasons for not allowing the sniper rifle. On some maps you have to go out of your way to get one. There are other issues that need not be explained. We have given you enough reasons and I will understand if that isnt enough reasons for you and you choose to play somewhere else. That is your right. If you still choose to play in our servers please understand they are not allowed. Feel free to re-read this post if you still dont get it.