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Author Topic: Is Music Really just Maths?  (Read 8720 times)

Offline jim360

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Is Music Really just Maths?
« on: November 06, 2009, 03:53:14 PM »
This conversation came up on vent around a week ago. In the "for" side were Edison and I, and against was... pretty much everyone else.

So yeah, is music really just Maths?

Well, I think that there is a big case for this. Firstly, when you hear sounds, you're hearing waves, which not only cna be described mathematically but are mathematical objects. It's not a representation, it's the truth.

Music, then, is made when those sound waves reach your ear and are processed in such a way that the brain interprets the electrical signals and "likes" it. The processing is mathematical - making use of something called the "Fourier Transform" - the waves are mathematical, and in theory it would be possible to write a piece of music designed specifically for one person by considering their special acoutsic properties, plugging these into a formula, and the output would tell you what frequency combinations work best for that person, and making the piece of music reflect this. Yes, this would be possible (though admittedly not yet as far as I know).

On the "against" side you might argue that people who write music generally aren't aware of this and seem to do a pretty good job anyway. I'm not going into more on this because it would be interesting to hear what other people think.

It's a difficult subject, rather like asking whether turntables are instruments or not.

Thoughts?

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Offline BFM_JANE

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2009, 04:17:37 PM »

I think a lot of things can be represented with math or numbers and while that may be interesting, it's not what that thing is. Overly analytical people don't strike me as people who enjoy things the way the rest of us do...



Offline jim360

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2009, 04:42:14 PM »
Surprisingly, sometimes being analytical is the only way to appreciate something. Especially certain complicated works of art that only mkae sense when you really start to pay close attention to what is going on in the piece.

Don't get me wrong, I love music and I enjoy it for its own sake, like nearly everyone does.

The point about music is that it is what the mathematical representation says it is... or is it? that's the question.
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Offline Moosh

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2009, 05:04:39 PM »
Well honestly nearly anything and everything could be related to maths, or represented by maths in some way. Anything "could be maths" if the person decides to look at it that way, it doesnt change anything, its just a different more in depth way of looking at it. It just comes down to a persons perception of it.

I'm not really sure what this discussion is about because yes music can be made using maths, but it practically never is intentionally.


About the turntables are instruments... i remember there being a discussion about that sort of thing on vent, and thats a tough topic :XD:

Offline BFM_Octane

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2009, 05:21:10 PM »
To think their is any real valid argument that its just mathematics would be ignorance of what else music is though.

Really because at that point you might as well go around saying playing Halo is just maths, or me looking at you funny is just maths, or eating this Tandoori Hot Dominos Pizza here, is just maths. And that my friend, is just not maths!



Offline BFM_Edison

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2009, 05:55:24 PM »
Your analogies are fairly faulty, Octane.
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Offline BFM_JANE

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2009, 06:27:14 PM »

It seems like a "miss the forest for the trees" thing. You can work backwards, pick apart the sound to uncover the math in it, but that's not what we're meant to do with music.

Music isn't just math and the same goes for most things, especially things made by people. If all you see are numbers and formulas (I'm not saying formulae :P), you're missing the whole. Music is about creativity, imagination, and expression. Math is all about sterile perfection, and while you can do lots of things with it, it's just not the same and never will be.



Offline Miser

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2009, 08:59:31 PM »
I see it as more psychological. True, music is made of waves that can be expressed in math but the most important part of music is how we perceive it and what we get out of it.

Offline BFM_LËÕ

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2009, 12:01:59 AM »
i don't believe "Music is Maths"  while music can be interpreted mathematically that dose not make it math.
Every thing can be explained in some way or another via mathematical equations so to say music is math you need to say math is everything and its not math is nothing more then a way of Explaining things.

for me music is a Pleasing series of sounds and nothing more. 
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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2009, 12:19:29 AM »
I think we've established that music is indeed mathematical, but only just. Without human interaction, there's simply no feeling, no emotion, and no overall meaning to the music which to me, makes music matter. I think we can all agree that we listen to music for the feeling it gives us. I know I do.

Offline Daigoro

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2009, 01:40:28 AM »
[Drops in out of the blue]

Great topic!

Are you asking if music *is* mathematics? As opposed to "can be represented using maths"? Tap water is a fluid, and can be expressed through chemistry, but it *isn't* chemistry; it's just expressible using chemistry. As music (or colour for that matter) can be expressed by mathematics.

Sidebar: I'm not sure why the question isn't "is sound maths", since all sounds can (theoretically) be expressed through formulae.

Ahem. A physicist defines sound in terms of waves. A physician defines sound in terms of the ear components, nerves, and brain function allowing us to hear. That's why we sometimes see hearing impaired physicists arguing vehemently with deaf physicians in the forest near fallen trees.

I highly doubt that the brain is doing Fourier transforms. Why would the subconscious limit itself to what mathematicians understand? I believe that the brain of a jellyfish is far far more sophisticated than the most advanced mathematical theory.

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Offline Moosh

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2009, 02:25:32 AM »
The difference between meaningless sound and music is the human interaction.

Therefore, yes sound can be simply "maths", but music must have human interaction to express the feelings and ideas that are needed to make good music. Its the human element that maths simply can't create on its own, and its that that makes music music.

Offline jim360

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2009, 04:16:26 AM »
Well, I'm pleased to see that this thread has provoked some reaction. I could reply to everything in the thread but I'll stick to a few points.



Really because at that point you might as well go around saying playing Halo is just maths

Well, yes. It is. At the heart of the program there is, among other things, a series of Linear Transformations of the form Ax=d going on (x and d are vectors), a mathematical equation solved mathematically, that basically determine what happens when you fire a pistol. The maps are built using mathematical modelling techniques. In order to gun effectively, you need to take into account the speed and direction of the hog, lead the target somewhat, and factor in for Ping differences - basically, you've done a sum. Which is maths. So, in conclusion... Halo is maths.


Music is about creativity, imagination, and expression. Math is all about sterile perfection, and while you can do lots of things with it, it's just not the same and never will be.


That's not really fair. A good mathematician also needs those skills - certainly of creativity and imagination. And I think calling it sterile isn't accurate either. What is sterile about fractal geometry, a subject that generates some of the most beautiful patterns in existence? Or wave mechanics, which it has been shown can generate the exact same patterns as the glorious colouring of certain insects? Or electromagnetic field theory, which in the space of a blackbaord can contain everything - pretty much - there is to know about the subject?

It takes a while to appreciate this but maths really is beautiful. The sad fact is that in order to appreciate that beauty you would have to study it in rather more depth than that gone into at school and even college.


for me music is a Pleasing series of sounds and nothing more. 

The question is, why is the series of sounds pleasing? Why does every person like a different set of music songs and so on? The answer is quite likely similar to why we all have different-sounding voices, which is to do with the acoustic properties of our bodies. This is perhaps the biggest claim I'm making here.


I highly doubt that the brain is doing Fourier transforms.


Well the way it was expressed to me in lecturres on this topic was, in fact, that the brain was, effectively, performing a Fourier transform. Specifically the cochlea in the inner ear has a frequency response (unique to each individual human) and this frequency response would be the same as that given by the relevant Fourier Transform that, again, varies from person to person.

Several composers have already in the past have been making use of mathematical techniques to compose music. Specifically, they use concepts like the Fibonacci numbers and the Golden ratio, while each and every tuning system for any instrument, in one way or another, makes use of exact mathematical ratios. When you play a stringed instrument you are creating standing waves in the strings that only vibrate at specific wave frequencies. The guitar, piano and violin, for example, are all built using these mathematical ratios. The different sounds created between different instruments, even of the same type, owes itself to different acoustic properties of the instrument that can be quantified using tensors.

And so on.

One other interesting addition to this post is that C# and Db (C sharp and D-flat) are not necessarily the same note. They just are in most tuning systems.
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Offline BFM_Octane

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2009, 07:19:41 AM »
Quote
Well, yes. It is. At the heart of the program there is, among other things, a series of Linear Transformations of the form Ax=d going on (x and d are vectors), a mathematical equation solved mathematically, that basically determine what happens when you fire a pistol. The maps are built using mathematical modelling techniques. In order to gun effectively, you need to take into account the speed and direction of the hog, lead the target somewhat, and factor in for Ping differences - basically, you've done a sum. Which is maths. So, in conclusion... Halo is maths.

Yeah but the point im trying to make is though, turning it into maths and leaving out everything else that makes it what it is. Yes there are core mathematical elements to practically everything out there mate and yes music uses alot of initial mathematics. However they are still considered their own thing as there are many other core elements to the creation / composing / performance / consumption etc of these things.

Quote
Your analogies are fairly faulty, Octane.

Thanks for the input, Edison.  ::)



Offline jim360

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Re: Is Music Really just Maths?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2009, 12:54:19 PM »
Well what does make it what it is? I mean, if it's possible to answer that question without a lot of hand waving then I'd concede the point gladly. Ultimately the question could be asked, "Is everything really just maths?" and as we make more and more progress in maths it's not impossible that the answer could turn out to be "yes". Every year more and more objects turn out to be explicable using maths and the things that we say don't fall into this category may turn out to do so later on down the line. It raises some interesting questions I think.
Check out my Short introduction... corner and my "Historical figures who should perhaps be better-known" thread!!

Exciting videos: 1.1 / 1.2 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6



              

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