Was this defense move legal? Sidewinder base "wait-n-boom"

[HastaLaVista]

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[BFM_JANE]

I'd say wait-and-boom is more camping than defending. Lone hogs can use their gun seat to defend themselves if they're being attacked, but the enemy should be on the radar and it should be a quick thing -- jump out, kill attackers, back in and go. Driving someplace safe and then hopping out and waiting means they had time to hide or keep racing. Not the best odds for the poor lone hog, and we do the best we can to help even them, but sometimes it just isn't meant to be. For self-defense to be legal and fair for both parties, both have to be visible to each other, otherwise it's camping or slaying.

[Wic]

Hey Lowkey;

I have talked with Victus and grillman about this and there are a few corrections I think we need to make.

Apparently the enemy didn't get on the guns of an RH, rather he had an RL and got out and was on foot.

Also, your loaded hog had been trying to shoot this fellow since first cliff all the way to blue base.

So in this case I'd say he was likely legit although it is a very close call.  If the player had not been doing anything wrong till then or showing signs of marginally camping, I would not call him on this move given he'd been fired on for amost 3 navs up to that point.

A strategy you and grillman could have used was to recognize the fact he could attack in that small base and wait outside the base for him to come up but in that case your gunner MUST NOT FIRE on him because then you would be the one camping.. so if you are gunning and your driver does this keep it in mind. 

These kinds of things do happen in the heat of battle and as I said, if a player hasn't been stretching or breaking rules to that point as an admin I would let it go.  It can be a very close call though.. he would really need to see you start to enter the base before jumping out of his hog.

Hope this helps and I have all the facts straight 

[BFM_Kiwi]

Good question!

I think this is one of those questions that needs a more official answer from Elvis or another officer, but here's my take.

First of all, he has to be under threat.  That means you are shooting at him (were you?  I assume you were) or you're on his radar, which you weren't.   In a scrim, you can't get out and attack unless you are fired at.  In a public server we're more lenient, you just have to be "under threat" and he obviously knew a loaded rocket was behind him, so I think he justifiably felt under threat.  

But was he camping?  If you're correct that he was 3/4 of a nav distance ahead, then he should have time to get the nav and get back out before you enter (unless he drives in/out of the bases like I do lol).   Whether it was camping depends on just exactly how far ahead he was, and keeping in mind he can't see behind, if you're shooting at him he doesn't know how far away you are.  "Not on the radar" doesn't mean much - off the radar isn't very far away when a rocket hog is behind you.   If rockets are whizzing by he probably thinks you're very close.

Assuming he was under threat (and yes he probably was), and not waiting too long for you to arrive, then it comes down to:  did he pick a clever spot to defend, or did he go too far and, as you say, turn a defensive maneuver into an unfair advantage?

The "hide and wait, then attack" applies to walkers hiding behind a rock and then nading/rocketing when a hog is unaware they are there and has no real shot at them.  If you are going to hide, then you can't wait and then suddenly attack.  In this case he's not really hiding - you know he's in there.   But it is similar in that he's in a defensive position where you can't get to him, and then he turns on the attack and you have no chance.

He's happened to pick a spot where he can fire as you enter, and you'll be dead before the back half of the hog is even in the base, so your gunner has no chance.  If he'd come around a corner (say on Infinity, Timberland, Danger Canyon) and ambushed you, at least he'd be in the open where you could have a shot at him if your gunner was paying attention.  Even at the bottom of a big jump like on Death Island or Timberland, if he was waiting at the bottom I'd say that was totally fair.  This situation seems different, not so fair.

Now if he had been on foot, no hogs, and walked into the base with a rocket launcher, and killed you as you were entering the base, you'd have no chance either, but it would be perfectly legal.  Happens all the time.  Hmmm.

Or if you were right behind him as he entered the base, I'd have no problem if he jumped out and rocketed you before you could react.   It all comes down to just how far ahead he was IMO.  If he really was quite a ways ahead of you, then stopped and set up this shot, I'd say it probably went too far.

If you were firing at him, then maybe the answer is "you missed your chance, shoulda hit him!".   But yes, I see your point of view and tend to agree it sounds a bit unfair.   Did he have the time/opportunity to get his nav and get back out of there?  If so I think he should have taken that option.  If he felt that he was 100% dead because you were right behind him and he's defensless, then he's justified.  

As much as I sympathise with you, and think this may have crossed the line, in a public server, he probably felt justified and the admins were probably right in thinking he was under threat and defending.  It's a special situation, not many maps have places where this sort of situation could develop.

Edit: ha, took me so long to type all that in, Wic and JANE answered! Wic seems to have a lot more info that changes things a bit

[HastaLaVista]

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[BFM_Booyah]

Loq, I think I am going to have to start a discussion about this one amongst the officers and maybe get back to you because, with the situation as you describe it, I am very much of the opinion that it was not kosher.  Like you said, I don't think it is a huge deal either and I am sure the individual was just thinking strategically but as long as we are here to talk about the details then let's do that.  Also like you said, defending yourself is of course legit but the way you go about it sometimes can be questionable.  They way I see it is that he was no longer under threat from anyone as soon as he ducked inside the base.  I am sure he knew that would be the safest place, which is exactly why he choose to jump out there rather than out in the open.  Yes, he knew that a threat was to be shortly coming but, in a full server, isn't that always the case?  Threats come and go all the time but once a threat has gone (even if only briefly) you can't keep acting as though there is a threat.  If we all acted that way none of us would ever get back in our hogs...because there is always another threat coming soon somewhere.  He choose to run for the safety of the base instead of facing you head on in the open...in my opinion that falls under RULE 6.2 "You may temporarily hide to keep from getting killed, but you may not attack until you are back en route.".  Basically you can either hide and wait or you can attack and defend...but you can't do both.  That is my opinion anyways.  We'll get back to you if we come up with something of Earth shattering consequence.  

[Wic]

"I never said he did not have the right to defend himself from Grill's rockets, of course he did! What I was questioning was his way of going about it. So, this isn't a correction to my account of the scenario, I said in my 1st post he was totally in the right to defend."

The 'correction' I was referring to was that he was on foot with RL not on the rocket gun.  This was from the person that supposedly was with you that you discussed it with in the server, so we might have two different situations here.  Both are sure of what they said.

You have misconstrued the intention and tone of my response.

Quote from: BFM_Wic on Today at 14:18:17

Also, your loaded hog had been trying to shoot this fellow since first cliff all the way to blue base.
/quote
"I never said he did not have the right to defend himself from Grill's rockets, of course he did! What I was questioning was his way of going about it. So, this isn't a correction to my account of the scenario, I said in my 1st post he was totally in the right to defend."

Erhm... I wasn't suggesting that you DIDN"t say that.  I was filling out some details of the situaton that I had been told from others in the server.  And no, it wasn't a correction of your account... see above, lol.

I think Booyah is right, we'll pass this along for discussion.  There are two different versions for what I thought was the same situation.

[HastaLaVista]

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[BFM_Elvis]

Seems like I get the chance to read all of this and make a decision on what I would do and what is fair. Many clans dont agree with being able to jump on the back of a driverless hog to defend yourself. So if you have 3 enemies throwing nades at you or shooting you what do you do? Why not jump on the back of a rocket hog and take out as many as you can? What if you have a chain hog chaining you down and you have no where to hide but he is far enough you really wont probably hit the hog with a nade? So why not be able to jump on the back of a driverless rocket hog to defend yourself? The rules for BFM were written from the view point of a guest who is on foot and what can I do. Then a guest in a hog or alone in a hog and what is FAIR! I think we are debating what is fair in this case instead of what can a person do. We know he could have jumped or used the RL to defend himself. Was it fair when he chose to do so? Well that depends on so many things. How far did he think you were behind him? The radar means nothing well kind of. I mean how many times do you chain down someone or rocket someone while on a hog that isnt on your radar? Many times. But if the person is half the map away from you then you cant sit and wait on him.

What we have to do guys and gals is think as we might have. I dont think it has been disagreed with that  he was under attack from first cliff. So he must think im doing just good enough to be alive. He doesnt know exactly how far the person is behind him. So he thinks if I jump out now and they are to close I just die. None of us would agree that is fair if we were that guy. So he thinks.... If I can just get in the base I have just enough time to get out and get on the guns to defend myself. He does just that then how long did it take you to get to the base. That would then be the debate. He cant camp you. We must be fair to you too. So we think about how he has played so far in the game. Has he followed the rules for the most part? Lets say yes. Has he taken advantage of the rules so far and I havent seen anything to say he has. So we are actually arguing if he got out a hair to early to defend himself? We arent thinking he tried to camp us on purpose. Well those that know me in scrims Im the kind of person who thinks If I dont make the shot than if my driver dies or I get killed its MY fault. So I HAD the ADVANTAGE when trying to shoot at him. I see him duck in the base but think im far enough back that he cant be allowed to jump on the gun. He thinks your close enough behind him that he can jump on the gun. Well who is right? Unless you think the guy is trying to bend the rules or take advantage of them I blame the gunner. When you shoot at him you must think he might jump out and attack you. Some are better than others in doing this. We dont allow BFMs to do this except in BFM scrims. The reason is they get so much practice in scrims that they get good at nading the hog that was shooting at them. Also often times it can look slayerish in public servers especially when we have newer players. The gunner had the advantage at first and just flat missed. Maybe the guy waited a hair to long or maybe he didnt. We are now starting to split hairs which none of us could admin. If he was playing well the whole game I would expect he will shoot me or either think he doesnt know he can jump out and kill. So its now my gamble to enter the base. Again what is to long for him to get out of the  hog. Give him the benefit of the doubt. If he has played well dont think he just camped you. Think your gunner missed and I just payed the price or if your the gunner I missed and just got my driver killed so I will tell my driver its my fault. Unless he just waited way to long and no one has even debated it was more than a few seconds then I wouldnt warn him or think it was his fault. Yes there is a line to where this is camping. I wouldnt think he was in this case from all I have heard.

There is a lot of give and take. The long time guys and gals know the rules better than others. So you take the shot when you have the best advantage and miss. SO you miss and the driver nades you when he has the best advantage. Why shouldnt he given it hasnt been way to long. We dont need to define way to long. We all know. If is even close then it wasnt to long. This guy was shot at over and over the gunner missed over and over and he made you pay for it. I know that person could wait forever inside. That was never mentioned as the case. We are talking about seconds. Heck we could say 3 seconds and make a rule. That 3 might be to long. Being fair to both players is what is expected. If this happened to me I wouldnt have warned the guy with what was said here and think man my gunner cost me or man I need to tell my gunner my bad for missing him.

[HastaLaVista]

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