Rule 8.3 - Delayed Progress by Spinning (version 2)

[Macheez]

Because I cannot post to the original thread I decided to use the same title and added (version 2) to help future searches.  After reading the original post, consider the following facts, information, and opinions.

Admins Involved: BFM_Marty and BFM_Three60
Specific Map: Sidewinder

Team 1: Mac-n-Cheez (driver) and BFM_Marty (gunner) in Rocket Hog at/near/on/around Lap Marker.
Team 2: Unknown (driver) and BFM_Three60 (gunner) in Rocket Hog heading to/climbing up/jumping down from Nav Marker #2.

* BFM_Three60 made claim of excessive spinning and not driving directly towards Nav Marker #2.
* BFM_Marty agreed with excessive spinning and said it could be construed as chasing.
* BFM_Exodus states that excessive spinning can create an unfair condition for the opposing team and that one spin is usually sufficient.

Taking into consideration that too many scenarios exist with numerous variations, this request for clarification cannot fairly expect a complete and definitive answer.
Also, the "Spirit" of BFM servers cannot be confined to a match of skills or the length of relationships even though the environment is an attempted balance between racing and slaying.
However, the competitive nature within us supports all the tactics and strategies formulated to be the winners for the end of each map.

Regarding the issue of spinning, we should all recognize there are three(3) different match-ups between chain and rocket hogs.  And each match-up creates different tactics and strategies.  Defining "excessive" for one match-up cannot be equal to another because the type of hog creates different advantages and disadvantages.  These advantages and disadvantages are further enhanced based on the played map and the area within that map.

Thus leads us to the "Questions for the Officers".
1. When does spinning become excessive in that it creates an unfair racing condition to the enemy?
2. When does spinning become excessive in that it can be seen as chasing?
3. When under fire, can spinning EVER become excessive?

* Definition of "Under Fire" for the above question:
   A. To see immediate damage of bullets, rockets, or grenades on your character.
   B. To detect an unsuccessful attempt to damage/kill your character.
   C. To recognize an enemy as having the immediate and continuous capability of damaging/killing your character.

My opinionated point:  I spin to win and to stay alive.  I don't spin to cheat or be unfair.
A rocket hog can be fired three(3) times with a two-second(2) delay between firings.  Each possible shot dictates the tactic of a completely random direction by the enemy driver.  Furthermore, the driver should not be forced to drive a specific predictable path that gives the enemy gunner an unfair environment in which to win.
If one spin is sufficient then is anyone willing to teach me how to become that good?  I just don't see how you can be so good that you can win with one spin.

Thank you for your time and thoughts in this perplexing matter,
Mac-n-Cheez

[BFM_JANE]

"Campers and slayers sometimes do their thang with the intention of helping their team. They want to win and survive as well, but that doesn't make camping and slaying okay." -Abraham Lincoln

So wise. It's no wonder he was considered to be one of our greatest presidents.


There is a hardness to your post there, and I suspect you're not going to like or approve of anything anyone tells you. I can tell you one thing now, there is no direct answer to your questions.

I will answer as best as I can, but please tell me what you think the answers are first. If I know what your understanding of it all is, it could save me some typing.

[Macheez]

Thank you very kindly for your time BFM_Jane,

The "hardness" you detect is because I recognize this topic's placement is between a rock and a hard place.
(LOL!!  Did Abraham Lincoln really say that?  You have my curiosity now and I'm going to have to do an internet search)

I'm puzzled by your request for me to provide answers when that is what I am attempting to respectfully discover.

I believe the Hot Word here is Fairness.
The oxymoron here is defining a fair fight when fighting by nature is based on using advantages against disadvantages.
And when combining racing and killing the word fairness can only exist in the context of playing "Rock, Paper, Scissors".  An ability, weapon, or location can always trump another's.
Everyone expects a "fair" opportunity to succeed; however, there is a high probability that one player's definition is different than another's.  And our observation of events will also differ because of what we know and don't know.
Rules are always created to provide the best guidance for the most commonplace scenarios or problems.  Rules cannot be specific except when defined specifically, and thus we strive to adhere to fewer rules without creating an infinite number of rules.  Unfortunately, the rules tend to influence unforeseen situations and then become a continuous black-hole by increasing definitions and oversight.

Rocket Hog Advantages:
Three(3) successive attempts to inflict the quickest and highest explosive damage to both vehicles and multiple personnel within an immediate to mid-range field of scope.
Rocket Hog Dis-advantages:
Two(2) to three(3) seconds needed for reloading of another three(3) rockets.
Can cause immediate gunner and teammate death if fired against objects immediately adjacent to the rocket hog.

Chain Hog Advantages:
Continuous gunfire damage which is most effective against personnel within an immediate to short-range field of scope.
Chain Hog Dis-advantages:
Needs three(3) to five(5) seconds of focused fire on single targets.
Not effective against other vehicles.

Spinning Advantages:
Creates misdirection and improves probabilities of avoiding enemy rockets or landed grenades.
Spinning Dis-advantages:
Delays progress to the next navigational marker.
Creates a stationary target for focused fire from enemy chain hogs.

"Rock, Paper, Scissors" Fairness Factor:
Fairness on BFM servers cannot be gauged by everyone having equal advantages and disadvantages at all times, on all maps, and in all scenarios.  That's just not a feasible reality.
Fairness on BFM servers can be obtained by the acknowledgment and understanding of rules defined specifically and extremely.
When certain specific rules are seen to be in conflict of each other then a rule should be better defined or completely removed.
Confusion is created when rules are given exceptions and are easily subject to interpretation.

My deduction on the "Spinning" controversy is that there is conflict between the expectation to always be moving forward to your next nav marker and the approval to act with defensive tactics when engaged by an enemy.  Subject to interpretation is the determination of when the defensive tactic instantly morphs into the never-allowed chase killing.
Spinning should be allowed as often and long as necessary, OR, it should not be allowed at all.
Extreme? Yes.  Why? Because as soon as an exception is made then the never-ending black-hole of rule-making is created.

If someone claims one(1) spin should be allowed then someone else will claim two(2) or three(3) spins be allowed.  If someone claims spinning should be allowed for three(3) seconds then another will claim five(5) seconds should be allowed.  And thus is a never-ending debate on the whys of what should be allowed.

I enjoy playing on the BFM servers because of what I have perceived as a family-focused fun-oriented environment.  Because a couple months have passed, my observations and experiences are continually honing my perception of the BFM server environment.  I still wish to join BFM and help maintain the positive atmosphere.  However, I have doubts in my mind regarding some of the rules and how to adhere to either the "Letter of the Law" or the "Spirit of the Law".  If I am striving for the responsibility of refereeing then I want to be confident even now as a guest in why I make my decisions.  I care about all BFM rules and I refuse to act like I don't care about rules that I don't quite understand.  I will never become a great admin if I am constantly second-guessing my instincts and observations.  For now, as a guest, I can only work on maintaining consistency of adherence to the rules.

I know I'm long-winded but hopefully this post has given you helpful insight of my understanding of all of this.
Thanks again for your time and patience,
Mac-n-Cheez

[BFM_Kiwi]

I hope you don't mind me butting in.

As far as rules go, we can't expect every guest that happens upon our servers to think too hard about too many rules, so we have to keep them simple.  So while 1 spin, or 3 seconds, might be arbitrary, we have to settle on something simple and easy to remember.

If you are in a lone hog, you can spin all you like to avoid rockets. 

If you have a gunner, you have protection on board, so endless spinning isn't necessary.  It seems fair to allow you to swerve or spin or hit the brakes to try to avoid a barrage of rockets, but if you spin or slow too much, then it's unfair to the enemy, because the other driver is heading to a nav point which your gunner can aim at (like that first nav on Sidewinder, Blood Gulch, Death Island), while the other gunner has a far harder target to hit since you're looping around.

So the intent of the rule is you can make a minor deviation for the purpose of hopefully not running into a rocket, but you can't delay going for that nav, otherwise everyone is converging there except you and you can take pot shots at the nav and pick everyone off. 

I think this rule came about because too many people were spinning like tops and not going for the nav, so something had to be done.  Arbitrary?  I guess a bit, but before the rule, no one was going for the nav and it was a farce.

So don't overthink it, that's all it's about.

Admins in the servers will try to explain, but it's hard to do in a few short sentences while trying to race, so if we seem to not make full sense or even contradict ourselves, it's just hard to explain this stuff in the servers.

[BFM_JANE]

Thanks for the insight. Where to start...

The rules are in place to keep things fair for all players and have everyone in mind, not just the poor driver trying to survive a barrage of bullets or rockets. This goes for all rules, not just the spinning one.

In everything you've said, you never mentioned your gunner and his role in your survival. As the driver of a loaded hog, you're responsible for what he does because you're the one moving the vehicle -- he can't race if you aren't racing and he's at your mercy when it comes to going to the navs and getting laps. Spinning wouldn't matter if you didn't have a gunner, but when you do, you're as much a threat as the enemy. You also haven't mentioned those savages shooting at you and their rights in the server. They do have rights, and a desire to survive, and they're also competitive.

While you're spinning away and thinking of the future, what about your gunner and the other players in the server? If you can spin and delay your progress, consequently giving your gunner a better shot, then they too can spin and shoot. Now there's two hogs not going to their navs and just shooting at each other. That's not racing, it's slayer. Once you both start spinning, when do you stop? Both gunners will keep shooting.

You've considered all the spinning advantages and disadvantages, now think about the advantages of progressing:  1) You're getting further away and becoming a smaller target, and 2) you or the enemy may get behind something to block the shooting (like a base, a hill, a corner, etc). Maybe there's more, but those are the two most obvious ones. It does not say in the rules that you have to drive straight and predictably. You can swerve and you can temporarily hide behind something (remember your gunner, if he gets kills while you're hiding, it's more on you than him, at least for the first few seconds).

All these defensive moves (spinning, swerving, hiding) are to give you a chance to survive, but they are exploitable. Things have to be fair for both you and the enemy if the game is going to be worth playing. Your question came up because you want to do whatever it takes to win, but you're not the only one in the server (probably). I'm not saying you have to lay down and die every time someone shoots at you, just keep in mind you're not defenseless when you have a gunner, and that makes you dangerous. The enemy can't stop and shoot at you, and you can't stop or slow to shoot at them.

So Exodus' answer is the best one. It's not a black and white situation, there is no this or that, no either-or. Avoid getting shot, but keep in mind that you're not the only one on your team and the other team has rights too.

Also keep in mind that spinning more than once is just as predictable as driving to a nav point. Spinning is to dodge a rocket you see coming and if there's more than one rocket, a spin followed by going forward and swerving is best. If a chain gun is shooting at you, spinning or swerving won't save you, only getting out of their path will.


BFM_three60 says it wasn't so much your spinning that he noticed, but that for a few seconds you were driving toward the second cliff (nav #3) after getting the score nav. The best thing for you would have been to send him a PM asking about it and get his point of view. As well, when you have a question, keep it short and keep an open mind. You haven't really posted a question, it seems more like defending your actions and arguing the ruling. Nothing wrong with that if you're 100% right, but if you're not right, you won't learn if you're not ready to learn. I was reluctant to write this much because you're not in the right mindset to get anything from this.


Oh Kiwi, you're such a butt inner!

[Macheez]

Thank you very, very much BFM_Jane and BFM_Kiwi for taking of your time to provide some valuable insight that I do not have.  Both of your responses have greatly helped me in understanding another level of interaction with teammates and enemy players.  This new insight/awareness will help me interact differently from now on.

I learned a good while back that nothing good comes from attempting to be a "know-it-all".  But, I do have to communicate with others when I am frustrated by something I don't understand.
It saddened me BFM_Jane to hear your current opinion that I am not in the right mindset to get anything from any of this.
If my "come-from" has been negatively received then I sincerely apologize for my lack of mature communication skills and will strive to improve them.

If there is any doubt of the intent of my posting here then let the following thoughts be considered:
1.  I searched the forum for answers and didn't find the in-depth answer you have now provided.  I believed that by posting publicly this would then provide additional insight for anyone else now and in the future.  If this should have been better handled privately then I again apologize for my lack of judgment.
2.  The purpose of mentioning BFM_Three60 and BFM_Marty was only to provide information of who to ask for the "other side of the story" kind of information.
3.  Both BFM_Three60 and BFM_Marty handled themselves very courteously and professionally which I am very appreciative.  It was a great experience.  Personally, I have admired BFM_Three60's gunning skills for some time now.  Rarely, I get a map where I have somehow obtained more kills than everyone else, but BFM_Three60 is a consistent ace shot of which I have been attempting to observe to improve my skills.
4.  I admit to everything BFM_Three60 and BFM_Marty have claimed occurred.  When I communicate with others I attempt to provide others the insight as to the "why" of my actions because I am in fact looking for the "why" of their actions or expectations.  If my responses both with the BFM admins and now in these posts have conveyed a defensive justification rather than a sincere attempt to understand and improve then I apologize again for the lack in my communication skills.
5. Your answers have helped clear a bit of fog in my thinking so that I have a new appreciation for the dynamics of being a driver AND also having a gunner.

Honestly, I have been struggling with learning how to "gel" with whoever is my current teammates.  The bond I usually develop is limited only to the thrill of having stayed with the same teammate for more than one lap, and it is really cool if you can go the whole map together.  I am frustrated by my slowly-developing yet newbish gunning skills.  And combined with the frustrations from wild and crazy gunners I have never had much appreciation for the gunner position.  I have even sometimes seen it as a liability.

I will strive hard from now on to give credibility to my gunner, appreciate their situation, and do my best as the driver to keep us steadily moving forward in the Spirit of BFM Fun and Fairness.

Thanks again,
Mac-n-Cheez